Unpopular Opinion
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Politics is everywhere. Let's make this about [general] and [lemmy] - specific topics, and keep politics out of it.
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4. Shitposts and memes are allowed but...
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This shouldn't need an explanation. If your post or comment is made just to get a rise with no real value, it will be removed. You do this too often, you will get a vacation to touch grass, away from this community for 1 or more days. Repeat offenses will result in a perma-ban.
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This is a bit of a mix of rules 4 and 5 to help foster higher quality posts. You are expected to defend your unpopular opinion in the post body. We don't expect a whole manifesto (please, no manifestos), but you should at least provide some details as to why you hold the position you do.
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Exactly, and at that point, does it make sense to consider that person the same as the one from the new testament?
I think a big point of contention in the debate is that people say 'Jesus was(n't) real' without clarifying whether they mean the former or the latter bit of your comment. I have a hunch there'd be more agreement if everyone was more clear. Thanks for the helpful comment!
People should be mindful of the phrasing. The title of this post, for example, is misleading trying to make it seem more than there just being records of a person who had the name Jesus. Nobody would call me a historical figure in the future just because I existed.
I do not give a fuck about this evidence. I want evidence that this man is what Christianity is founded on. It doesn't need magic or anything, but more than just a fucking name having existed for me to even start thinking it's the same dude.
It’s the name with the explicit connection to James, a leader of the early church.
There’s a difference between the idea of a pseudo-fictional composite character, like King Arthur who was constructed centuries after his time, and a real historical guy who existed and had stories written about what he said.
Consider how much evidence we have for Pythagoras. Pythagoras was also a weird religious cult leader, but I’d expect most here would know him for the Pythagorean theorem. Which he didn’t come up with. Does that not make him enough of a “Pythagoras” for you?
You have to gauge your sense of skepticism. There’s a difference between “oh, Gilgamesh seems to be showing up in all of these King’s List documents that claim thousands of years of dynastic dominance which are 80% bullshit to oil up a kingship’s perceived position in the world.” and “oh, here’s a bunch of texts about an unusual rogue ‘rabbi’ that developed a following; there’s some probably exaggerated claims of healing, an oddly novel resurrection story that has more added to it as each Gospel is written.”
Read just the resurrection, Mark-> Matthew-> Luke->John to see how the more fanciful stuff develops. Heck - maybe even read the New Testament in chronological order - starting with the letters of Paul and see them as dealing with situations happening in real time. Treat it as a ‘found footage’/‘ambiguous narrator’ collection. A murder mystery.
There’s a difference between reading the Bible as a religious text, to either prove or disprove, and as a compilation of vastly different documents, by vastly different authors, writing across centuries.
For a modern example, think about John of God - one of the faith healing charlatans that Oprah promoted. Will people who live in the next few centuries automatically discount his existence because they find it occasionally next to a description of his supposed miracles, which accounts are perhaps more likely to survive than those of his sexual assault allegations? Will the things that he will have said to have said not be accurate, even if other information about him is not?
At the end of the day, there’s just as much evidence for the existence of several early historical figures that we don’t doubt the existence of. I think it’s reasonable to not privilege the text as anything other than a primary source document, and recognize that a lot of similar supernatural claims have been added to multiple real world figures in history.
I think the difference between doubting Pythagoras and doubting Jesus is that no one is claiming g Pythagoras existed to bolster their claims on holding a moral superiority. A lot of historical research (especially early on) into the history of Jesus is done by religious scholars who are explicitly seeking to back up things they already believe. I don't trust them. Most of the consensus is built upon this pre-conceived idea that he's real, and so the support is on shaky footing.
No one really cares if Pythagoras existed or not, so it's not worth considering. A lot of people hold a certain (potentially harmful, or at least ignorant of reality) view on the world because of a supposed figure named Jesus, and the fact there isn't much evidence he existed at all pretty heavily breaks the illusion we know he did miraculous stuff. If it's questionable that he even existed then it's certainly questionable that he did anything special.
The fact is, historical consensus is built on backing up a belief, in this case. Not on fact originally. It becomes incredibly hard and dangerous to your career to question the consensus without evidence —and you can't have evidence of non-existence. That means anytime anyone questions it people yell "most historians agree!" and no further questions are asked. I think it's much healthier to question it, regardless of what the consensus is. It wouldn't be the first time it's been wrong, and it can't hurt to be skeptical.
Pythagoras literally ran a mystery cult, and was associated for centuries with magical/divine powers after. Look at what probably happened to Hippasus.
Modern Bible scholars disconnect any ideas about moral superiority. The goal is to understand Jesus as a man, to the point where you can find polemics by modern Christian scholars about how godless the field is.
It’s good to question things, but there needs to be reasoning behind your question. There needs to be some sort of explanation of how a conspiracy developed to make a guy up who was crucified (Jewish conceptions of the Messiah at the time were more a kingly type ordained to overthrow the Roman yoke, and crucifixion is a pretty humiliating death…) Where is the motive, means and opportunity for a bunch of people to simultaneously decide this guy existed?
No one alive today cares. At the time, sure. No one is a part of his cult today, unlike Jesus's cult.
Like I said, it's based on knowledge from people who didn't. I feel like you're purposefully ignoring parts of what I said.
There does not need to be reasoning to not believe something. There needs to be reasoning to believe something. I don't believe Jesus existed in the same way I don't believe any other person who we don't know about existed. I just don't hold a belief. It doesn't matter to me, and I haven't seen enough evidence to actively hold a belief, and I don't care enough to try. It's not important to me.