this post was submitted on 16 Oct 2025
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[–] ZkhqrD5o@lemmy.world 52 points 2 weeks ago (6 children)

I'm European. My mother tried to get me into Christianity. When I was 7 or 8 I asked "If God created everything, then who created God?" I got no answer, ever since that moment, I didn't want to be religious. My mother tried until I was 14. It failed.

Also, I find american Christians weird. They twist and contort Christianity into something to suit their ideological needs, racism, homophobia, capitalism, nationalism, unilateralism, etc.

[–] Starski@lemmy.zip 41 points 2 weeks ago

That's not just Americans that do that... That's pretty much anywhere with any religion.

[–] glorkon@lemmy.world 30 points 2 weeks ago (3 children)

And don't forget, those are the people who tell us atheists that "without the Bible, where do you get your morals from?"

Well, we can see what these biblical morals are - you mentioned it: homophobia, racism etcetera. It makes people hateful, while claiming it is charity and compassion.

Religion poisons everything.

[–] Instigate@aussie.zone 28 points 2 weeks ago (2 children)

People who ask that question are really telling on themselves; they’re saying that without religion they would have no qualms stealing, murdering, and raping. They’re very dangerous people.

[–] glorkon@lemmy.world 16 points 2 weeks ago (1 children)

Oh absolutely. That's the scariest part about this whole line of argument.

Christians do not believe people are inherently good. We are all sinners. And even scarier, you can be excused for anything if you confess. Three Bloody Marys and one Hello Dolly and you're golden. Still get into heaven.

The whole religion is just a thinly veiled framework designed to allow bad people to do bad things - and even make good people do bad things.

[–] Bigfishbest@lemmy.world -1 points 2 weeks ago (1 children)

35 For I was hungry, and you fed me. I was thirsty, and you gave me a drink. I was a stranger, and you invited me into your home. 36 I was naked, and you gave me clothing. I was sick, and you cared for me. I was in prison, and you visited me.’

37 “Then these righteous ones will reply, ‘Lord, when did we ever see you hungry and feed you? Or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 Or a stranger and show you hospitality? Or naked and give you clothing? 39 When did we ever see you sick or in prison and visit you?’

40 “And the King will say, ‘I tell you the truth, when you did it to one of the least of these my brothers and sisters,[a] you were doing it to me!’

There are many parts of Christianity, but these are among the clearest words of its founder. Wherein this admonition do you find a framework to do bad?

[–] glorkon@lemmy.world 3 points 2 weeks ago

Want me to list all the parts of the Bible where it commands Christians to kill gays...?

But that's not even the point. You know just as well as I do - Christians of each century have always cherry picked the Bible. There's a currently fashionable interpretation of the same book that keeps changing over time. Pick a different country and a different century, suddenly people are burning witches.

The exact contents of the Bible don't even matter that much, it's the fact that Christians are free to interpret it to their liking.

The Bible isn't the framework I was talking about. The framework is the Bible plus the man with the funny hat can tell you whatever the fuck he thinks it means and what makes you blindly serve his current agenda.

[–] allidoislietomyself@lemmy.world -4 points 2 weeks ago (2 children)

They are not all dangerous. Most are just ignorant. Sometimes willfully so. They have been conditioned to never even think about questioning the rules, so they never had that moment where they thought "wait none of this makes any sense". We should be more compassionate towards these folks. Most of them are not bad people they are just incapable of questioning their place in the universe.

[–] AlexanderTheDead@lemmy.world 7 points 2 weeks ago

Ignorance is dangerous

[–] Instigate@aussie.zone 1 points 2 weeks ago

I’m not saying all religious people are dangerous, just those who ask how someone can have a moral compass without religion. In order to ask that question genuinely they have to believe that they, without their religious rules, would have no qualms with harming others for their own gain.

[–] Aceticon@lemmy.dbzer0.com 1 points 2 weeks ago* (last edited 2 weeks ago)

I think it's broader than that:

You also see plenty of people delegating their sense of Right and Wrong to, for example, political leaders.

A great example is people who would look at what's going on in Gaza putting aside politics and going "yeah, knowingly killing tens of thousands of children is objectivelly a bad thing" but as soon as their favorite political leaders start opinating about it, all of the sudden they're all "I don't believe that's a Genocide" (even after the UN officially deemed it a Genocide) and claiming that people criticizing Israel are anti-semites.

I've seen it happen in the country were I live - people who previously admitted that what was happening was bad, suddenly when their favored rightwing politicians took an interest in it and openly sided with Israel, start voicing quite different opinions which ape what those politicians are saying. You get further confirmation that they're driven by politics when they start framing the whole thing with local politics - which has pretty much zero influence on the actions in Gaza - hence that framing means they're looking at it through the eyes of local tribalism rather than using a personal sense of Right and Wrong.

As I see it, the problem isn't specifically Religion or Politics, it's people with high Tribalism (hence easilly swayed by the leaders of their tribes, such as religious or political tribes) and lacking or with a very weak moral compass.

[–] squaresinger@lemmy.world 13 points 2 weeks ago

“If God created everything, then who created God?”

There's a lot of places where one can poke holes into faith/the concept of a God, but I don't think this is one.

The reason being that God's existence doesn't actually change anything about the question or the answer. You can rephrase it as "If everything came from the Big Bang, what came before the Big Bang and what created the preconditions of the Big Bang?"

So you could use the same argument to "disprove" literally any world view, including science, or even hypothetical scenarios like the simulation theory ("If we live in a simulation, who is running the simulation?").

But you can not only "disprove" every potential answer to "where does everything come from", but you can also rephrase the question to "If atoms are made of quarks, what are quarks made of, and what are their components made of?" or to "If there's an end to the universe, what is outside of it?"

If you are smart enough though, you will see that none of that is actually disproving anything, because if you rephrase the question further it becomes "Why don't we know everything?" and that's a rather simple-minded question to ask. One befitting of a 7 or 8 year old, but not really of an adult.

Before the circumnavigation and the discovery and charting of all of the world, people also didn't know what was on the other side of the planet and still it would have been dumb to doubt what we knew (e.g. that the British Isles existed) only because there were large white spots on the map elsewhere.

[–] Bigfishbest@lemmy.world 11 points 2 weeks ago (2 children)

The answer that any person who has thought about it and not rejected the idea is: If a being that has created and shaped our universe exists, it exists (at least partly) outside of our universe. Like a programmer doesn't have to follow in his life the limitations of his code in programming, such an entity's existence would be so far outside our modes of thinking that "who created him?" would simply fall flat as a question.

To begin to answer such a question one would have to have some knowledge of the plane of existence where the divine resides, and as that is outside the realm of what we can understand through physics and the natural world we live in, the question becomes unanswerable.

The question then becomes, can something exist on another plane of existence? The answer is of course, we can't examine anything outside our universe, so, the answer must be, we don't or can't know.

I suppose then, the next question becomes, do you want to believe that there is something /someone outside the natural universe that gives meaning to our existence?

[–] squaresinger@lemmy.world 6 points 2 weeks ago (1 children)

The question itself doesn't really make sense, because it just boils down to "Why don't we know everything?".

The same question would lead to the same answer ("We don't know") if we ask it about e.g. the Big Bang. "If everything was created by the big bang, what created the big bang?"

It also applies literally in every field where we don't know something yet ("What's beyond the stars/beyond the universe?", "What are quarks made of?", "What's past infinity?"). We don't even know what's in the dark at the edge of the solar system. Judging by orbits and gravitational patterns, there's likely an entire large planet that we don't know of because it's too far from the sun and thus too dark.

It would be idiotic to summarily dismiss every field where there are things we don't know, and where there are edges to our knowledge that are so far away that we cannot know or understand them.

[–] Bigfishbest@lemmy.world 1 points 2 weeks ago (2 children)

My point is not that we don't know yet, my point is that we can't know. All our knowledge is based on studying the natural universe, if something is beyond it, then by definition it would not be knowable by studying our universe. Perhaps at some stage we could reach a way of examining and understanding the supernatural, but for our intents and purposes it's outside the box, while we are inside, and our only way to relate to it is to choose whether we believe in there being something outside the box or not.

[–] snooggums@piefed.world 4 points 2 weeks ago

If we can examine and understand the 'supernatural' then it just becomes knowledge and natural, or at least our perspective of it does.

The easiest example is natural phenomenon like flooding, volcanoes, storms, fire, and tons of other things were or are seen as supernatural and had beliefs and religions built around them. Some were considered supernatural, or to have supernatural causes.

Did our understanding of them make them not supernatural or were they natural the entire time and we just didn't understand them yet?

'Supernatural' is not a real thing. It is human speculation about why and how natural things happen. There are no gods as described by any belief system, just things we don't know or understand yet.

[–] squaresinger@lemmy.world 1 points 2 weeks ago

I don't really agree with that. A program could break out of the sandbox and get to know the things around it. In fact, there are many programs that interact with the real world, gathering information about it and acting on it.

If there was something like an actually sentient program, it would be totally conceivable that said program could use cameras, microphones and other sensors to get to know its programmer.


The difference between the science and things considered supernatural is that one is something we have a solid understanding of and the other is speculation.

If there's an unexplained phenomenon and we find a solid explanation for it, it becomes science. Weather and other natural phenomena used to be in the realm of the supernatural, same as dragon bones, mermaid bones and the kraken. Until we found out what they really were and how they worked.

If magic were to exist in reality, it wouldn't be magic but instead just a branch of science.

A lot of things we can do nowadays would be called magic a few centuries ago. I mean, we can literally make frogs float in thin air. We can make incredible amounts of power from some magic rocks (nuclear power). We can even inscribe magic patterns into sand to make it think and talk (computers).


So coming back to the beginning: If we talk about something like a Simulation Hypothesis scenario (which is de facto identical to a scenario where God exists outside of our plane of existence, however that is defined), it's totally in the realm of possibility of that scenario that the simulated could break out of the simulation.

Or in case of the Big Bang Theory, it would be theoretically possible to peek before the big bang.

I'm not saying that it is actually possible, but I'm saying that we can't summarily dismiss the possibility.

[–] SwingingTheLamp@midwest.social 2 points 2 weeks ago

But, here's the kicker, if we don't know anything about this other plane of existence, then how can we know that our universe couldn't spontaneously arise from it without the intent of a creator? That's the crux of the question: We have a mystery about the origin of our existence, and "solving" the mystery by saying, "God did it," is just sweeping the mystery under the rug and pretending it's not there. What OP was able to see at 7 or 8 years old was that the mystery was still there, but with an unexplained extra step added.

[–] tomi000@lemmy.world 7 points 2 weeks ago

Christianity (and most religions) always has been a way for people to cope with their fears and guilt. 'what happens after we die?' -> 'its heaven dont worry'. 'Am I a bad person?' -> 'no Jesus died for you dont worry fam'

[–] njordomir@lemmy.world 3 points 2 weeks ago

It sounds like we were similarly inquisitive children, perhaps to the point of making adults uncomfortable.

My European mother is the reason religion didn't fuck me up worse than it did. I was also forced to go to church as a kid, but even within our own family there were differences in thought and opinion that still managed to exist in civil dinner table discourse. My mother seems to have gone through her own questioning process, it just didn't take her to extreme atheism but rather she arrived at more of a mystical Abrahammic monotheism. When I was older, I fell into the trap of religion on my own (Evangelical Christianity) and it's changed the course of my life significantly in both good and bad ways.

A decade to a decade and a half later I'm mostly over it. I'm comfortable with my current belief system and I live life openly and honestly with 95% of people I meet. If I had to describe myself I'd call myself a self-rolled Buddhist-Atheist.

I'm not envious of those Christians with enough of a conscience to realize what's going, but who are reliant on "American Christians(TM)" for their community, support, spirituality/philosophy/introspection. They have difficult and painful decisions ahead of them. You can only ignore your conscience for so long, but the first to defect will be shunned and hated and will likely lose their entire social circles. That happened to me. They will also be susceptible, as we all are, to similar tactics and abuses as those doled out by their former religion. You don't leave and suddenly become a mastermind at spotting abuse of power and become immediately immune. If anyone reading this falls into that category, I would recommend finding a nice, non-religious hobby where you see people from different walks of life on a regular basis. Bicycling groups, social dances, gardening collectives, etc. People are pretty nice outside of the bubble. You'll be okay.