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NGL, I dont know what happens after this time. It seems like the entire west is turning to fascism so I'm not really sure who'd fight it
What gets me is that it's all a response to the generally centre right governments focusing on business for the last 45 years. Government has forgotten about the individual in the west. And the people have had enough.
Why then, do they turn further right? This should be bonanza time for the left.
The answer is the conservative propaganda machine, and the USA is a prime example.
Everything that made America "great" post WW2 were "socialist" driven labour, regulatory movements that decreased wealth inequality, improved economic mobility and housing security, increased quality of life and education, held corporate criminals accountable, etc, etc.
Wealthy sociopaths took that personally, and have spent the last 55 years destroying all of them; mainly through their ownership of media and dissemination of propaganda/disinformation, destruction of education. They chose fascism over improving the species and civilisation. They are our great filter, if we let them succeed.
They're creating a system in which millions have to die for them to win and dozens have to die for us to win. I know which odds I'm taking in that bet.
Yeah, but thanks to their control of the media, they've also created a system where millions will leap to defend them while demonizing anyone who criticizes them. When things get truly dire, they'll just point at some random demographic and say "it's their fault!" and their followers will eat it up.
I'd love for them to face consequences for their actions, but going by history they'll keep getting away with things until an ally backstabs them for power or the regime has eaten itself and fully fallen.
That's true but as the saying goes "cut off the head of the snake and the body dies". Eventually followers have no one left to follow whereas the other group has no real leaders. Once enough realize it's a numbers game the outcome is easy enough to predict. The situation just needs to be viewed in a slightly different way than most people are conditioned to view it in.
That may be a big perspective shift but most of the constraints to our perceived available responses come from the desire to continue living within the confines of a social contract that is rapidly deteriorating. Most people haven't begun to feel that directly yet but once they do the situation could change very quickly.
I think that violence is inevitable which is what you are saying between the lines.
A couple years ago these stories broke that ultra rich are prepping for doomsday scenarios like in mad max where some horde is trying to storm their compound and they just defend themselves until everything blows over.
They do not plan on having most of humanity around. The time to stop them is now, not when everything is lost and they hide in their bunker.
The left gained a lot but mostly from the green party. Afd voters are lumpenproletariat that is unable to read. If they could read they would not vote against their interests.
The unresolved issues caused by low birth rates and high immigration from incompatible cultures leading to less social cohesion in society.
I'm not sure anyone really fought it last time. The wars didn't start until Germany started invading other nations which is what started the shooting.
The US didn't even enter the war until it was bombed.
"We fought fascism" is a bit of retroactive justification IMHO. We didn't, we were just defending ourselves from fascists who attacked first.
If Hitler stayed in Germany... Who knows?
25+ million Soviet people died in the struggle against fascism, resulting in 80% of the total Nazi casualties being in the eastern front. Please don't insult the memory of the heroes who died saving Europe from fascism.
Also, I'm a Spaniard. Anarchists in Spain organized and fought fascism in the Spanish civil war, with Soviet assistance too back in 1936-1939. If you're not sure who fought fascism, I urge you to educate yourself in communist/anarchist movements.
I'm not trying to minimize anything here. The Soviet Union had a non-aggression pact with Germany and they didn't "fight against fascism" until Germany invaded. Meaning "there being Nazis" wasn't the trigger of that fighting, it was "Germany invaded us". But then sure, it was "fighting against fascism" because it was "fascists" invading. But it could have been anyone invading.
It's a subtle distinction I'm making.
This is fair - I was thinking mostly of the main Axis/Allies conflict. I'm also over-simplifying a bit in that I'm focusing mostly on leadership. I understand that there were grassroots efforts. And Spain definitely had its own fascism problem where the people did fight directly against fascism.
Though as an aside: I can think of no more of an obnoxious phrase than "educate yourself". 🙄
Did you not read my comment? I specifically mentioned the Soviets being the only country in the world that meaningfully helped the antifascists in Spain with weapons, tanks, artillery and aviation, back in 1936, 3 years before the start of WW2 while all of western Europe was doing appeasement with the Nazis and "non-intervention" against fascism in my homeland.
Before the start of the war, the Soviets were famously trying to urge all of Europe against Fascism and in particular against Nazi Germany through mutual defense agreements. They signed one with Czechoslovakia together with France, which France refused to honour (see Munich Betrayal), which, and I quote Wikipedia: "The Soviet Union announced its willingness to come to Czechoslovakia's assistance, provided the Red Army would be able to cross Polish and Romanian territory; both countries refused.", again back in 1938, before any Fascist invasion of the Soviets. Furthermore, the USSR under the Litvinov doctrine sought after mutual defense agreements with Poland, France and England, to the point of offering to send ONE MILLION SOLDIERS to France (Archive mirror to bypass paywall) together with tanks, aviation and artillery to France on exchange for a mutual defense agreement, which France declined.
Looking into Soviet interwar policy, it's patently obvious that they were the strongest antifascist formation in Europe except possibly for the Spanish republicans during the Spanish civil war.
My point stands though. Fascism was fought predominantly by Communist and Anarchist leadership. China against fascist Japan, Cuban revolutionaries against fascist dictator Batista, Spanish Republican government in the Spanish civil war... Whereas it was capitalist countries funding fascist coups all over the world such as that of Augusto Pinochet in Chile against socialdemocrat Allende, the Iranian coup against socialist-aligned Mosaddeq...
Yes I did - and you're making excellent points - don't do this though. You want to harden somebody against you? You say shit like this.
I'll accept your argument.
Yeah, you're actually right. Sorry for being a smug ass, I guess I'm sensitive about this part of history which is heavily misunderstood and propagandized against socialists like me, but you're right and I'll try to be more chill about it. Thanks for the chat
I hear ya. I have actually been to Spain BTW (and no, not just Barcelona) and it's a beautiful country with a rich history. We certainly don't learn much about Spain in the US (beyond "age of sail" type stuff) so your sensitivity is rather justified. What I learned there about the civil war, Franco, etc. was eye-opening. But seems I could use a refresher. ;-)
The Soviet Union invaded Poland and Finland. It was an expansionist imperialist power itself.
They had a blatant disregard for the lives of their own people before WW2 even started as well as afterwards. Sacrificing the masses was state policy.
The Soviet Union invaded the famously Polish cities of looks map... Lviv (6th largest city in modern Ukraine), Pinsk (10th largest city in modern Belarus) and Vilnius (capital of Lithuania)? Most of the territories invaded by the Soviets in "Poland" were actually Ukrainian, Belarusian and Lithuanian territories that had been invaded by Poland in their 1919 expansionist war against Ukraine. Or are you a Ukrainophobe saying that Lviv belongs to Poland?
For reference: Poland in 1938
And a map of the territories the Soviets invaded:
The USSR had a blatant disregard for the lives of their own people before WW2, which explains why life expectancy looks at chart ...increased from 30ish years old to 40+?
Your own map shows Lviv/Lwow to be a Polish city.
Russian maps from 2015 show Crimea to be Russian, do you agree it's a Russian city? My entire point is that Lviv, one of the most important cities in Ukraine, was invaded by Poland in 1919. Soviets "invading" it in 1939 effectively meant returning it to Ukraine.
What do you think about Russia Ukraine in today's context? Thanks
Unfortunately, both of them suffered the illegal and antidemocratic dissolution of the USSR, which led to the greatest humanitarian crisis and loss of life in Europe since WW2, with scholars such as Paul Cockshott estimating the deaths in more than 5 million after demographic analysis of the region, with Ukraine being hit especially hard due to becoming the poorest country in Europe after the dismantling of its entire economy in the 90s. Unemployment, depression, alcoholism, homelessness, drug addiction, violent crime, mental health problems and even hunger and preventable disease turned the 90s and early 2000s into some of the worst that Europe has seen in more than half a century, and I therefore condemn the capitalist government of both countries extensively for all the damage they're doing to their own populations.
So what was that holodomor thing about, harmless right? Great leap forward also awesome did not kill anyone. Good talk man...
"Holodomor" is just a scary word to refer to the 1931-1933 Soviet famine. Do you also use special scary words to describe capitalist-driven famines such as the Bengal Famine that the British created in India, or is it a privilege only reserved for the last serious non-war-made famine in the USSR?
Famines, believe it or not, were commonplace in preindustrial Russian Empire, which had a terribly low life expectancy. Between 1917 (Bolshevik revolution) and 1941 (Soviet Union entering WW2) life expectancy rose from 30 years to about 41. The Socialist project in Eastern Europe made some mistakes, such as errors in the collectivization of 1929-1934 during the first 5-year plan that led to unexpected sabotage and failed crops, but ultimately these mistakes were more than compensated for through social policy, universal healthcare and education, and probably most importantly, enabling the industrialization of the Soviet Union that allowed for the mechanization of agriculture and the end of famines (which by itself saved millions of lives) and the win against the Nazis 10 years afterwards (which by itself saved tens of millions of lives from the planned genocide against the slavic peoples by the Nazis according to the Generalplan Ost. The Soviet project saved tens if not millions of lives from hunger, disease, exploitation, and worst of all, colonisation and extermination by Nazis.
No I am not defending some genocide that any non-communist nation has ever been responsible for. That's how you seem to define capitalist driven. Check your cognitive biases there. I do not defend the British empire nor the Roman empire, nor the Ottoman empire nor the third Reich.
About the dissolution of the USSR who's fault is it that it happened how it did? How much mismanagement and corruption is inherent within the communist system? Modern day examples are pretty high on the corruption index.
They mechanized and industrialized plus had health care. The rest of the world did that too.
The times you are citing are also the most totalitarian under Stalin. With lots of purges etc. so not substantially better than living under the nazis. If you are starving, you are starving.
Yeah, history doesn't provide much help in this regard because fascism was stopped by the Axis losing a war. That's not happening this time.
And even then nazis were still everywhere in the government, courts, police, army and everywhere else. Hell, some old new generals of newly formed Bundeswehr even had plans to overthrow the government.
Entnazification is a myth, they were never gone and now they don't even need to hide anymore.
Just like the American Confederacy! Turns out you can't just ignore the bastards and hope they change.
What do you mean? NATO can't even win a war against similarly fascist Russia, Rutte himself said that Russia (an impoverished country with less GDP than Germany) produces ammo 4 times as fast as the entirety of NATO. Whenever western fascism inevitably engages militarly against China, it will be swiftly swept out of the map by the strongest industrial power in history.
It'll be the communist in China who will fight fascism. But even China's claim as being a communist is questionable since the 1990's.
Surely the fascists pretending to be communist will save us from the fascists pretend to be democratic!
How is China fascist? It hasn't participated in a war in 40 years, it lifted 800mn people from poverty, has strong public healthcare, education and retirement, and routinely cancels sovereign debt from global-south countries. I went to China last year and people there are pretty happy and hopeful for the future compared to our bleak outlook here in the west.
God, I love triggering Tankies.
This China?
I suspect the people benefiting from the rise of fascism in the States seem pretty happy too.
Westerners hate China and hate Muslims, but for some reason care so much about Chinese Muslims. Notice how even the Wikipedia article title got changed from "Genocide" to "Persecution", I wonder why that is.
You, as a westerner of a country actively supporting actual genocide in Palestine, the one you can actually go online TODAY and watch videos of how many kids got bombed yesterday, are criticising the Chinese government for a harsh reeducation campaign in a province that hosted radical Islamist groups carrying out terror attacks in China which killed hundreds of people. Your fucking homeland of Canada (assuming from your instance) has all but eliminated the native populations of the region, and you have the courage of crying "TaNkIe" because I think that a country that uplifted 1/10th the world population from poverty in 30 years is admirable in that regard.
Ah yes, build a strawman "westerner," surely that'll help you. I wasn't praising Canada's practices, but whatever helps you project, I guess. My favorite part of your entire neurotic rant, honestly, is that you defend genocide by pointing to a worse genicide, like somehow that makes every insane, disgusting, and anti-humanitarian thing China had done totally fine, because, "but the West is worse!"
You can think whatever you want, but my suspicion is that you're either lying or terribly misled. And yes, probably a tankie, but there's room for error there.
"Say what you want about Hitler, but he pulled Germany out of poverty!"
Hitler famously didn't pull Germany out of poverty, that's just Nazi propaganda. He literally starved his people to buy weapons for genocide. Fascists famously don't improve the living conditions of the working class, that's what communists do, unsurprisingly.
You also didn't mention anything about the policy of China itself, you just generally pointed to a Wikipedia article fully based on western news outlets (I wonder what motives western capitalist outlets would have to lie about socialist China?) and speak of anti-humanitarian traits.
And yes, I'm a westerner. I'm a Spaniard communist who yesterday was gluing signs on the streets of Madrid with my org calling for the Student Strike organized for the 2nd of October, and for the mass protest of the 4th of October calling for a general strike to force the government to cut ties with Israel. You're attacking the wrong enemy here, there's no "tankie threat" in Europe, the enemies are the far right and I'm on the right side of things. How about you worry about stopping fascism in your own country and system? China doesn't have a blossoming fascist party.
Fucking WOOSH.
"When they said it, it was propaganda, unlike glorious China!"
Yes, there are so many historical instances of the wonders of communism pulling countries from poverty. It's famous for being an uncorruptable ideology where the people are never abused by ill-actors who work from a position of social elite status, unlike the disgusting systems of capitalism in the west. I hope I don't need the /s here.
The irony of you telling me I'm attacking the "wrong enemy" is palpable, considering you painted an entire portrait of my ideologies, beliefs and behaviours based on my lemmy instance. It's almost as ironic as you telling me to mind my business and stick to my own country, when all I said is that fascist China isn't going to save us from fascist America, while you're neither Chinese nor American. Of course, when you get involved to stand against the ignorant westerners, it's virtuous, and when those ignorant westerners speak out against blatant lies and propaganda, they need to mind their own business.
Fuck off, tankie. I don't need to waste my day picking apart half truths to discern where the dishonesty lies.