This will be another reason for the traitors to piss and moan.
this post was submitted on 20 Aug 2025
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Well I was half joking, but it seems to me like you are promoting a pretty big double standard here. You start off by saying "We can start with motherfucking saturday morning cartoons where they clearly showed who the bad guys are and what it means to be a bad guy." So you are clearly criticizing something you find fault with (aka problematic) about modern cartoons (I'm not sure what, I don't really watch cartoons anymore) but turn around and say I shouldn't criticize "Problematic" things in "iconic" programs. Then you turn around once more and criticize them your own self in that they were glorified toy commercials, which is a good point. Things can be problematic in more than one way.
I agree that we should teach kids right from wrong (who are the good guys and who are the bad guys), but if you then portray the U.S. Military as 'The good guys' I have a problem with that. I bet a lot of kids who grew up idolizing the Joes ended up joining the military themselves, only to be forced to help overthrow democratically elected leaders in Central and South America, or protecting the U.S.'s ability to buy oil or opium products for cheap by murdering brown folks in the middle east. In my view, the U.S. Military haven't unambiguously been "the good guys" since 1945, and even then the way that war ended was problematic as hell, and I'm not joking about that.
It's irrelevant that Scrooge is a Duck, the message that some billionaires aren't the scum of the Earth is a dangerous message to put out to impressionable young minds- no matter how cutesy you make it look. Look at how many of us who grew up in that era now idolize Elon Musk or Bill Gates.
Yes, I understand that people have cherished memories of some of these shows (just like young people today will someday look back fondly on the shows you feel comfortable criticizing), but being able to look back at the past with the nostalgia Goggles off, and be honest about the things that shaped our values is a part of maturing and growing as people. If the only defense you have of such programs is that they are 'cherished memories'- that seems weak af tbh.
And btw, you friend is absolutely right. Zootopia is 100% copaganda. Just like 1000 other TV programs and movies in our culture. The fact that portraying cops as unambiguous 'good guys' is far and away the norm, but even the mildest of critiques such as Zootopia being copoganda sticks out as silly to you is the reason why it's important to call stuff like this out when we see it.
People need to hear and wake up to reality. Coddling reactionary fragile egos isn't going to accomplish that. Unflinchingly evaluating where we are and how we got here is the only way to do that- even if it makes people slightly uncomfortable for a moment.
It's not the boots we are criticizing but literally the fact that they are Nazis. You want us to refrain from calling a Nazi a Nazi for fear that it might hurt their fragile little egos and alienate them. You seem to think that racism, sexism, and bigotry at little, insignificant problems and if we just stop complaining about them it will go away.
Racism, sexism, and bigotry may not affect YOU, but I bet you can guess the people they do affect. The people complaining about those things aren't just doing it to hear themselves whine. They are sick and fucking tired of being discriminated against, and they have every right to demand they be treated as equals.
Yes, there is going to be push-back from reactionaries. They've been pushing back hard against equal treatment for all humans since before the civil war- the fought a whole god damn war to stop it ffs. Could you imagine if the people on the side of freedom and basic human dignity had simply capitulated when they saw where demanding the slaves be free was heading?
They pushed back when women wanted to vote. They pushed back when minorities wanted equal rights. They pushed back when gay people demanded fair treatment. The only way decent folk have ever made progress is by fighting. The only way we will continue to progress is by demanding equality for all humans and accepting no compromise. Burying our heads in the sand and capitulating to the Nazi's WILL NOT make the Nazi's see the error of their ways and bring them to our side, they will see that as weakness and confirmation that they have the right of it.
The problem is one of LACK of Education. It's not talking about these issues. We will never, ever gain freedom and equality if we ignore the reality for the people that bigotry effects. The problem isn't women, or minorities, or lgbtq people demeaning fair treatment, it's that the ruling class has convinced working class conservatives that they are the enemy. That it's 'woke' people who are making their lives suck, and not the Billionaires who treat the working class as slave labor. Not the right wing politicians (and that includes Democrats) who raise taxes on the poorest of us and to give to top 10%. That immigrants- the group of people with the lowest crime rates, who pay way more in taxes than they see the benefit from are the ones making the economy bad and crime high.
The ruling class has been successfully sewing a rift between the "left" and "conservatives" with a propaganda and misinformation campaign that goes back over 100 years. To McCarthy and Hoover. They pit the working class whites against the socialists and communists- the very people who are trying to free them. And what's your solution? To keep quiet about the propaganda? To shut up about social and economic injustice? To roll over and allow the modern day McCarthies and Hoovers to win? We have to expose the lie.
We have to find a way to unite the people, but if you think that the marginalized groups are going to trust and work alongside the ones complicit in their disenfranchisement without the others putting in the work, while they are still tools of the oppressors- I just don't understand why you think they would or should do that.
Equality (economic and social) isn't "the minutia"- it's literally the entire fucking point. Equality doesn't just benefit the 'woke' crowd, it literally benefits everyone other than the ruling class.
My guy- in case you haven't been paying attention- the revolution is already in progress! It's not the one we wanted. It's not the Leftists freeing the working class, it's the god damn Nazi's assuming control. And every day we sit back and do nothing, allowing them to gain and consolidate more and more power the harder it will become to free ourselves from. We are Germany in 1933. Orange Hitler is in power and is trying to make America the 4th Reich. The only question left is will we overthrow them ourselves or are we going to wait until the rest of the world unites against the U.S.?
Conservatism and hate is on the rise. Just like in pre WWII Germany.
You are once again blaming the victims of the 'culture war' for the actions of the perpetrators. You are saying 'woke' people were "asking for it", by demanding equality. You want to blame someone for taking away freedoms- blame the fascist pieces of shit taking away our freedoms! Shifting the blame to the victims is EXACTLY what the propaganda machine is designed to do, and you are eating it up!
They aren't having 'comfortable, happy lives'. If they were it wouldn't be so easy to manipulate them into scapegoating immigrants, minorities, 'liberated women', socialists and trans people for their misery. Clearly they think something is wrong with the country and are willing to sell their very souls to a fascist dictator who promises to 'fix' things and 'make the country great'.
The incentive is there, but they are too ignorant to realize it. The incentive to fight for freedom from our oppressors and equality for all people is a better, happier world for everyone. They are just focusing on the wrong enemy- exactly what the ruling class wants them to do.
How do you fight ignorance? By simply ignoring it and hoping it will sort itself out eventually? When has that ever worked? The only way to fight ignorance is with Education. Knowledge. Facts. The truth. Not burying our heads in the sand and being too afraid to step out of your comfort zone to learn about the Truth.
Right now we are in The Matrix. You are Cypher, and you want us to stay plugged in so you can continue to enjoy your delicious steak and be someone important (a white man). You are right that waking up to reality is tough. It's uncomfortable. It's dark and bleak and scary. Seeing our oppressors and their strength for what it is doesn't make fighting them any easier. What it does do is allow us to actually see who the real enemy is. It gives a fighting chance that staying plugged in simply will never give us. Yes there will be millions of other Cyphers too comfortable ever want to wake up. Who will fight to protect the system that keep them ignorant and enslaved.
"The Matrix is a system. That system is our enemy. But when you're inside, you look around- what do you see? Businessmen, teachers, lawyers, carpenters. The very minds of the people we are trying to save. But until we do, these people are still a part of that system, and that makes them our enemy. You have to understand, most of these people are not ready to be unplugged. And many of them are so inured, so hopelessly dependent on the system, that they will fight to protect it."
That's exactly what reactionaries told abolitionists. That's what they told the women fighting for suffrage. That's what they told the black folks demanding equal rights. That's what they told gay people who wanted the right to marry. "Just give up already, it's never going to happen- you are only pissing people off- just give up!"
WE are focusing on that. WE mention it ALL THE TIME. Over HALF of OUR talking points are about the ever growing wealth gap, about the buying and selling of our politicians, about the ways capitalism is destroying our freedoms and our environment. It's the Right Wing Controlled Media (all mainstream media in the US) which is the main tool the ruling class have, that hammers home the fact that the same people who advocate for economic equality also advocates for social equality, and people need to 'pick a side'.
Show me an example of what you are talking about. Show me even ONE politician who is anti-human rights, but also anti-capitalist. If it would be 'SO EASY' for the bigoted 'anti-woke' working class to suddenly switch over to anti-capitalist class warfare- there should be TONS of people already advocating for that, right?
Again you are missing the entire point. 'Wokeness' isn't about making crackers feel bad. It isn't about shaming people for not dating trans women or wearing leather. "Woke' LITERALLY means waking up to and being aware of your oppressors. For YOU, the only people oppressing YOU are capitalists, because YOU clearly aren't a member of any minority group. YOU expect minorities to just Shut up about Oppression so that the Oppressors don't feel bad about it. One of the main goals of 'Class War' is to eliminate CLASS entirely.
If by some incredible miracle the fascist boot liking contingent of the working class were to suddenly show interest in class war and a willingness to work with the 'woke mob' to fight against the ruling class- and we were able to win that battle, we would still be just as divided by race, gender, and ideology as we are now- the battle would only be half over. There would still be hierarchy aka 'Classes'. Asking 'woke' people to just accept bigotry is like asking the people in the concentration camps to stop criticizing the bigots that put them there in order to fight the Nazis. It makes no sense. The people that put them there ARE the Nazis and Nazi sympathizers.
I was waiting on your to throw a temper tantrum, declare I'm not being serious, and announce your departure. That's what always happens when people like you can't back up your claims.
Well I was trying to figure out a metaphor you would be able to comprehend- I've already spelled out my position in clear an unambiguous language and you keep ignoring it. Apparently analogies go over your head as well. I tried at least.
I bet you can't or won't specify what those things are. Believe it or don't but typically the people you interact with online have living, breathing human beings on the other end. We are just as 'real' as Joe Dirt or whoever you are supposedly interacting with.
You can't debate them because they are immune to logic or the ability to feel compassion or shame for their hypocrisy. Perhaps if you had actually read my comment instead of skimming it you might understand that I have no interest whatsoever in attempting to win over the 'right'. Nazi's are going to Nazi. They NEVER were going to be our allies or fight against the ruling class and if you think even for one second they can or ever would be you are an incredible fool.
It's not 'rhetoric' homie- that is the literal definition and has been since the early 20th century when Leadbelly started singing about staying woke.
How in the actual living fuck are you planning on turning bigots against capitalists without waking them up to the fact that Capitalists are their oppressors? Are you planning on tricking them somehow? You keep dodging the question, how do you actually expect to accomplish an anti capitalist revolution without the left? I'd REALLY love to hear this plan.
And for the fifth time, I am not. If someone is against equality they are not an ally in any way and will be useless for fighting a class war in any capacity. We might be able to get some of the 'centrists' and 'non political' people who aren't absolute ghouls on our side through education- but he time for that is quickly passing. The battle lines are being drawn. If you are going to stand with the anti-woke crowd and expect leftists to work with you I believe you are sorely mistaken
Because there isn't one. I can't force people to have compassion and neither can you (not that you would even attempt it), it's something people have to choose for themselves.
I didn't TRY. I was successful. You can't point to a single person in real life trying the strategy you seem to think is obvious- because those people simply do not exist. I'm not sure what your damage is- but you are delusional.
Son I was born and raised Indiana- one of the most ass backwards redneck states in the Union. Not only have I 'lived around' working class people my entire life- I am the working poor. My dad was working poor. My grandpa was working poor. My entire family line going back for generations have been. And Yes I have intimate knowledge of how and what they think. I know the shit they won't say on Fox News. They hate Black folks. They hate immigrants. They hate gay people. They hate anyone that doesn't look and behave like they do. They think women should mind their men and defer to them as if they were children.They are willing to vote against their best interests in order to go back to a time when America was ruled by people like them. When women and minorities 'knew their place'. When America was "Great". If YOU actually spent time around working class rednecks you would already know this shit.
You were already out. The only thing you have said this entire conversation that is even remotely leftist is that we should have class warfare against the ruling class. That's a start but it's the bare minimum to participate. You are showing up to the ball game in a business suit and a basketball. It seems to me like you are a moderate or conservative who recently 'woke' (in the actual sense of the term) to fact that Capitalism is bad actually. If you aren't on board with equality. If you don't fight for a classless society- you aren't a leftist and you were never on my side to start with.