this post was submitted on 31 Jul 2025
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you keep talking about Biden's "intent", and that seems to me to be the root of what we disagree about (or rather, what you're misunderstanding about what I'm trying to say)
I didn't say anything about Biden's intentions, until you brought it up:
you have a gigantic false dichtomy here - making things worse on purpose vs making them better. there's a gap in the middle, of making things worse unintentionally, which is the point I've been trying to make this whole time.
you seem to be arguing "Biden had good intentions, so even if he did some bad things, you should give him a pass because he had good intentions"
I've been disagreeing with that, and you seem to be misinterpreting that disagreement as me claiming "Biden had bad intentions".
what I've actually been trying to get across is that Biden's intentions don't matter. they're ultimately unknowable, so arguing about them is pointless.
the purpose of a system is what it does. if Biden's actions as president resulted in good outcomes, they were good actions, regardless of whether he had good intentions or not. and likewise, if his actions resulted in bad outcomes, they were bad actions, regardless of good or bad intentions.
if you want an example that is more removed from the emotions of present-day politics, look at Bill Clinton signing the "crime bill" in 1994. we can recognize it had bad effects. we can talk about those bad effects. we can do that without trying to retroactively read Bill Clinton's mind 30 years in the past and try to figure out what his "intent" was.
the lesson for present-day politics is that Republicans have bad intentions, and that's sufficient reason not to vote for them. but a Democrat saying "hi, I have good intentions" is not sufficient reason to vote for them. the bar must be higher than that.
and if a Democrat campaigns on good intentions, and then gets elected and does bad things, "but they had good intentions" is a bullshit excuse.
Not even slightly. I'm saying that he made the situation and outcomes better, and also tried to make it better than that, but failed at some of what actually should have been done.
(And yes, I can pretty much feel the talking-point response to that coming... whatever, I'm familiar with them at this point lol)
You seem very interested in telling me what I am saying, instead of just listening to what I'm saying.
OK, so Biden made things better across the board. he could have made some things even more better, but wasn't able to. and he at least didn't make anything worse.
is that an accurate summary of what you're claiming?
because if so, we need to get back to those details you claimed I don't care about. the ones you've never actually responded to on their substance:
are you familiar with the etymology of "talking point"?
so when you call my replies "talking points", are you aware of the connotation that implies? that you're basically accusing me of not responding authentically as myself, with my own opinions, but instead getting direction about what to say from someone else, and I'm just repeating it.
if that's something you actually want to accuse me of, you should be honest and say it more explicitly.
if you're not trying to accuse me of that, calling my replies "talking points" is kind of an asshole thing to do.
we're entering "every accusation is a confession" territory...
because if you actually read what I said, notice I phrased it as "you seem to be arguing". that was intentional. I'm listening to what you're saying, and trying to tell you "here's what your argument is coming across as" because I do actually care whether I'm understanding you correctly or not.
meanwhile, instances in this thread where you've been trying to tell me what I'm saying:
Mostly. I wouldn't agree with "he didn't make anything worse," because US immigration post-2001 is a terrifying hell run by horrible people, and it would be hard for anyone to lay hands on it in any way without making something worse in the process. But yes, aside from that, it's accurate.
Because I'm not interested. I already laid out what I thought about this: Looking at the whole of his impact on immigration is a way better way to analyze his overall impact on immigration than extensive Lemmy bickering, and I think you're focusing in on details as a way to distract from the idea of looking at the overall.
Okay, fair enough. That previous paragraph is what I'm saying.