this post was submitted on 29 Jul 2025
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First, I'm really struggling to see how saying that we're regular people like everyone else is virtue signaling.
Second, did you miss the part where I said "we're all closer to falling into these pipelines than we like to think"? How are you reading that much value judgement and dismissal in what I wrote?
You're quite openly condescending to view the world through the eyes of the "regular person", who you imagine to be a simpleton with a much more limited worldview than yours.
You are a regular person. So am I. So is my wife, and so are my relatives.
Acknowledging that you're a regular person like most other people is important for recognizing that it's not "people" who are susceptible to those traps, but you and everyone you know.
You're lowering your standards for other people. I'm recognizing that if I fell into that rabbit hole, it would be because of at least one failure of critical thinking.
I expect people to be generally informed and aware of the world, just like I am. It's not shaming to recognize that someone made a mistake or failed to live up to expectations. People make mistakes.
Do you think it's okay for people with access to every piece of information you have, who are just as intelligent and capable as you to fall into the antivax hole? If you made a critical error in judgement, would you want someone to tell you you made a mistake, or would you want them to argue that "it's okay, they didn't know any better, so it only makes sense that someone like that would do that? Poor things probably scared and confused"?
You're immediately ascribing malice and poor character to these people with no regard for how they got there. By which you signal your virtue at having not done that thing. You call it a "failure" when in reality more often than not people get radicalized by being vulnerable and being taken advantage of by bad actors. You pay lip service to the reach of propaganda and how easy it is to fall victim to saying things like "People make mistakes" in the same breath you call them failures. You overestimate your own ability to resist propaganda along with how much knowledge and information the "average person" has. People with knowledge on a subject consistently overestimate how common their knowledge is. Even when they try to account for it. It's such a well documented phenomenon that XKCD jokes about it. Do you honestly think that people living paycheck to paycheck, many of which work multiple jobs really have the time to do extensive research on a topic like vaccination?
You're still doing it by making a value judgment on my statement rather than taking it for what it actually is being a statement of how people get radicalized by these types of movements. Asking "if I think it's okay" for people to make that failure in judgment? I understand the fear of a new parent and how bad actors can twist that fear to evil ends. How do you expect to reach anyone if you won't make even the slightest bit of effort to understand them? I get it, why should you have to make the effort to understand anything? It's not your job to teach them.They're the ones that failed, so they need to "do better" and that's it. You're a good person. You didn't fail in critical thinking and tumble down the alt-right rabbit hole. You want to hold everyone else to a higher standard because it absolves you of responsibility. Bad things happen because other people failed. It's not your fault.
While I want to make the effort to make sure that people have the same information I do. Because I recognize that I cannot know what information they have access to. And wouldn't ya know it? This is exactly the same stuff the people who STUDY VACCINE SKEPTICISM say works best.
Where are you seeing me ascribe malice or poor character? You thinking that having a failure or making a mistake makes someone a failure is projection on your part. I don't view making a mistake as a character flaw.
I don't even know what to do with this statement. How are you getting to that from what I said? Is it the part where I said the opposite?
I'm honestly taken aback that you're doubling down on "people are uneducated". You have a skewed view of the state of the average person. 5% of people work multiple jobs. You're condescending to view the average person as poorer, less educated and less able to become educated than they are.
People don't like being talked down to. Yes, I think if you become an antivaxer you've made a mistake. That's not a judgement on them, but on their beliefs. It has nothing to do with listening to them or how I might address their concerns. You're the one whose not really understanding people, because the people you're "understanding" are a caricature of what you believe antivax people to be like.
No, I don't think someone with two jobs working paycheck to paycheck and still underwater has time to research them. I don't think the level of knowledge I shared above (vaccines teach your immune system) requires that. I also don't think that most antivaxxers are in that position, and certainly the average person isn't.
What makes you think I think that? Do you think empathy precludes acknowledging a mistake? Or the other way around? I honestly don't understand the mindset you've expressed. Addressing mistakes is the heart of teaching someone. It's not an attack, or a value judgement, and it's not incompatible with understanding why the mistake was made. That understanding actually helps quite a bit.
You need to step back and think about why you perceive someone being described as making an error or having a failure of reasoning as a value judgement.
The entire premise of that article is how to effectively guide people towards getting vaccinated. The only reason you would do that would be if you thought it was a mistake to not get vaccinated.
Also...
I agree with the article, and also that point. You don't need to talk down to the person expressing the concern. They have just as much agency and information access as we do. Everyone makes mistakes or gets something wrong.
That's a lot to unpack. What responsibilities do you think I'm trying to be absolved of? You seem to be implying that it's my job or responsibility to teach people about vaccines. I try when it comes up to advocate for them, but I'm not actually a public health professional, like I said before. My knowledge on the subject is superficially better at best. It's no more my job to teach them than it is theirs to teach me.
I'm not even sure what you're getting at with the "bad things", and "it's not my fault" part. That's a lot more mysterious backstory than I actually have.
Bloody hell you are exhausting. You're still doing it. You're "just pointing out that they made a mistake, not saying it is bad." But by making it solely "their mistake" you are pushing all of the responsibility off on them. I get that you don't want to "condescend" to people, but even if it's not your intent the clear implication of how you talk about this is that they are the problem. It's their fault for being ignorant of all the data. It's their fault for not doing the "bare minimum" to engage on the topic. They lacked the critical thinking to see through the propaganda. They could have easily answered their own questions if they just applied themselves. So what does it mean if they haven't? Oh but it's not a value judgment. Everyone makes mistakes. I mean, I didn't make this one. What does that say about you?
But I'm the one who is condescending? It's "condescending" to acknowledge the concerns that these people have because I don't assume they have all the information I do. They're smart, they know this stuff already. Or if they don't they could easily learn it. Well Bud if they knew it already, why would they be scared about it in the first place? Oh that's right. They failed to resist the propaganda. It couldn't possibly be anything else.
I'm not doing this anymore. You win. You're far more virtuous than I. You're the Best Leftist. Have a nice day.