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How to explain to libs in crisis that the US Constitution is antidemocratic (piefed.social)

submitted 4 months ago by the_abecedarian@piefed.social to c/socialism@beehaw.org

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Part of what I see with 50501/Hands Off protests is that they have a theme of "defending the Constitution" from Trump. This is really a somewhat conservative position and doesn't have much historical rigor to it.

Prof. Aziz Rana of Boston College Law School is having a moment on Jacobin Radio right now. His basic thesis is that the Constitutional order is so deeply antidemocratic that the left argued with itself and the liberals over whether to focus efforts on challenging it in the early 20th Century. In the broad sweep of history since then, Americans have come to view the Constitution as a sacred text, but in fact, that order is part of what gives the Republicans and the far right their advantages despite losing the popular vote.

The shorter interview: https://www.leftbusinessobserver.com/Radio.html#S250424 (April 24, 2025)
The 4-part long interview: https://thedigradio.com/archive/ (see the Aziz Rana episodes starting in April 2025) - Part 4 isn't up yet.

So why should we venerate the Constitution, when it holds us back from real, direct democracy? I think part of what our liberal friends and family hold onto is a trust in the Constitution and the framers. They weren't geniuses, they were landowners worried about kings taking their property. Use these interviews, or Prof. Rana's book, to handle those arguments.

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[–] PhilipTheBucket@ponder.cat 11 points 4 months ago (1 children)

Do you think the constitution is a deeply flawed document written by the oligarchs of their time, which included among the institutions it codified slavery, misogyny, and war as a normal part of the human condition? Excellent, you're in good company and I (among many others) agree with you. That's why amendments and judges exist, also, so that we're not limited to its fairly flawed implementations and goals in governing what we're doing today.

Do you like having human rights, including the freedom to criticize the government, the right to due process, and the right to defend yourself against a tyrannical government? Great! So do I. As it happens there's a common phrasing that you can use as a quick code-word for saying that, which will engage the support of a massive range of people including among them conservatives, liberals, leftists, military people, police, lawyers, judges, and so on. And you know? It won't even made them want slavery back, if you do choose to say it that way. You could, of course, decide that it's more important to alienate 99% of those people immediately, and then provide fodder for extensive arguments with the remaining 1%. You could do that, that would be fun too.

Do you like having big performative "I'm more left than you so I'm superior I'm actually very smart because everything YOU think is good is actually bad" contests which assail whatever people are trying to do and distract from the most urgent issues of the day? Well... you're in good company with that one, too. This has always been a part of the left from the beginning, and I guess not for nothing; it's connected up with the freedom to speak your mind, not having to agree with any particular herd, and with having passion about issues and wanting to analyze everything and be on the right side of history. I get it. But I think the fight this person is picking is a pretty silly fight to pick right now.

100% of people you will talk to will understand what's meant by "the constitution," and literally nothing about it is anything other than urgent self-defense against a genuinely very urgent threat.

[–] millie@beehaw.org 5 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago) (1 children)

These people who spend their days trying to prove how "leftist" they are by destroying every tool we have are literally right-wingers.

[+] jatone@lemmy.dbzer0.com 2 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 weeks ago) (1 children)

[deleted]

[–] millie@beehaw.org 3 points 4 months ago (1 children)

You believe words have power or you wouldn't be out here trying to sabotage us with them.

[–] PhilipTheBucket@ponder.cat 3 points 4 months ago (1 children)

Ding ding ding you broke the code lol.

I also like how, if you sort of unfocus your eyes and take a broad look over the comments, it's very obvious that the chief purpose is shitting on "liberals." There's very little interest in the topics about democracy and improvement of the government and people power that are the ostensible purpose for this whole thing. Basically, almost all of it boils down to:

There are all these horrible people running around who believe the constitution is sacred and everything in it is great but they are wrong it's just a piece of paper and also it and they are going to make fascism
And you are one of them, no don't tell me what you believe, I already told you what you believe, shut up listen to me
YOU'RE A BIG PIECE OF SHIT ARAGRABRAGREWHDBEFJKHEBF

[–] millie@beehaw.org 2 points 4 months ago (1 children)

Absolutely. It's just a way to demotivate the left and trick people with the best intentions into shooting themselves in the foot. These people are out en masse here literally because we're such a leftist space.

If you see someone posing zero solutions but shooting down any possible way of moving any cause that might oppose authoritarianism forward? They're a fucking MAGA cuckoo.

[–] PhilipTheBucket@ponder.cat 3 points 4 months ago (1 children)

Yeah. They're not all fakers, either, I've seen these people at actual protests too. The one time it's happened I thought about interacting with them but I decided it wouldn't go well and went and hung out with the pro-Palestine people who didn't feel the need to be injecting a whole bunch of leftist infighting (to the point that it eclipsed anything pro-Palestinian and the leftist infighting became the main thrust of the message).

[–] millie@beehaw.org 2 points 4 months ago (1 children)

It wouldn't be an effective strategy if it didn't sucker some people into playing along. At this point, though, I think it's more important to point out that this is happening than to make sure we tiptoe around the few people stupid enough to actually buy into it.