this post was submitted on 19 Apr 2025
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This is a matter of opinion, not an objective fact.
Yes, which is why it's a spectrum. They don't cleanly meet either, they are somewhere inbetween and where exactly they are cannot be cleanly defined. You can try to determine this by size of gametes, etc, but you'll find complicating factor and exceptions in any definition. Since there's no clean, clear way to define these things, it is in fact a spectrum.
for example:
https://www.stateofunion.org/2024/03/07/poll-finds-majority-of-scientists-at-british-universities-agree-sex-is-binary/
You might think this source supports your claim, but notice "Specifically, 58% agreed sex is binary except in rare intersex cases, while 29% said it is not and 13% had no view. "
So?
So? They aren't talking about gender identity, this is a specific guide for a specific course, not representative of all positions by all experts in every field, textbooks are not masters of nuance, they explain things in simple terms to build mastery of a topic, just because a textbook author didn't want to get into the weeds of this doesn't mean it isn't a spectrum and there isn't complexity and nuance to the topic.
Talk to an expert with a PHD about this, ask them this specific question, you'll find a better answer than what the textbook says.
It is an objective fact. I'll link you to Wikipedia because it's easy, but feel free to cite anything that contradicts it: "The type of gamete an organism produces determines its sex"
You literally avoided reading the article, where a PhD in evolutionary biology explains exactly why you're wrong.
Yes, that is a fact, as is the fact that sex is a spectrum because of intersex people. These are not incompatible facts.
Plenty of PhD's in evolutionary biology would agree with me, even in the article
"Sometimes, the complex machinery involved in reproduction can develop wrong, and people can suffer from infertility or exhibit reproductive traits that are atypical for their sex, including ambiguous genitalia (intersex conditions). However, as pointed out by others, these are not additional sexes because these body plans do not produce a new type of gamete besides sperm or eggs. Someone who does not produce any gametes would also not be a third sex since they would be fundamentally incapable of sexual reproduction."
They make the claim that this doesn't count as another sex, but even not being any sex would be a sex all on its own... resulting in it not being a simple binary. There's nuance here that is going over your head.
Are you misreading the article? When it says "However, as pointed out by others", that is pointing out that you're 100% incorrect. I'm not sure why you cited something that proves you wrong. Nowhere is a single PhD cited that agrees with you.
I am not, he addresses this point by saying "this is not a sex", there being sexless humans implies a non-binary of sexes, this is just one way to look at it and a matter of opinion. He did not disprove my stance, he merely stated he dislikes it.
I already gave this:
https://www.stateofunion.org/2024/03/07/poll-finds-majority-of-scientists-at-british-universities-agree-sex-is-binary/
You might think this source supports your claim, but notice "Specifically, 58% agreed sex is binary except in rare intersex cases, while 29% said it is not and 13% had no view. "
Plenty of PHD's agree with me, even the 58% agree with me.
Let's review, your claim is that sex is completely binary, my claim is that sex is not binary, because there are exceptions to males and females being the only option.
The article acknowledges that there are people where you cannot say if they are male or female, or they are sexless, therefore, my claim is validated by the article. Your claim is not.
So I would agree with that 58%, because there's no option for "Yes, and intersex is irrelevant". It's honestly a terrible poll, most likely not written by a biologist. I wouldn't be surprised if that 13% put down "Prefer not to say" as a sort of "This is a bad poll" response.
I'll let the quoted scientist in the source of the poll respond.
i agree that poll is insufficiently specific, however, even if 100% of that 58% agreed with you, that would still not meet the criteria for scientific consensus, which is typically in the 90's. Show me a poll that indicates those beliefs are agreed upon in the 90's without an intersex objection and you will prove me wrong!
https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC10563654/ this might interest you, if you bother to read it, I disagree that it has anything to do with a lack of evolutionary knowledge, in fact I find the people most ignorant of evolution strongly hold this belief regularly, but that is a mere anecdote. None of the roundtable had anything to do with that, those claims seem baseless and dataless.
That link is a great example of why gender studies degrees aren't worth the paper they're printed on, goddamn. They're not doing science, they're zealots pushing for a new religion to infect science just like creationists of old 🤦
https://www.lifescied.org/doi/10.1187/cbe.21-12-0343
...Your quote is about changing the culture of a workplace to increase the number of scientists, and their happiness with their job.
What's the problem with that? Why is that not worthwhile to have more scientists?
Should we also make science more Christian-inclusive? Avoid teaching things that are offensive to them? That would surely increase the number of scientists.
No, because that would be silly. Science doesn't care how you identify. Put up or shut up
Yes, being more inclusive is always good.
No, but nobody said we should do that, so, what's your point?
We aren't increasing it at all costs, we're just finding ways to increase it by being kind to one another.
Yeah, that would be silly... but nobody is arguing for it and this is entirely a strawman.
Humans do science, humans should care.
We are not talking about gender identify. We are talking biological sex. There are two. That hasn’t and won’t change in our lifetime.
There's no definite way to classify intersex and non-sexed people that isn't simply a matter of opinion. This is a fact and won't change, ever. If you ignore these cases, sure, you're right, but these cases exist, so the topic is more nuanced than that.
It’s a birth defect. Their sex is still male or female. Intersex groups like to call it a variation but as I cited previously even they don’t consider it another sex. That’s because we are binary when it comes to reproduction.
How do you define people who produce both gametes?
How do you define people who produce neither?
The fact is, there are people who don't fit neatly in one or the other.
I'll accept it if you concede and admit there are at least 4 options. Perhaps 4 options is not enough to count as a spectrum... but this is yet another opinion.
Obgyn have a chart they use to match. How they identify later with their gender is a different story. Gender and sex don’t always match and I’m less concerned with that debate since it’s a made up social construct. Biology is biology. There may be variances in sex but there are only two. It’s how we classify since it’s about reproduction.
You did not address any of my questions or points, you just re-affirmed your belief without engaging with what I said.
How do you define people who produce both gametes?
How do you define people who produce neither?
Scientifically, this means there are 4 options minimum, no?
If you're claiming the obgyn chart determines it... it does not. That is also a matter of opinion. There are countless cases where they cannot decide and just make a random decision.
Perhaps if we don't count someone who doesn't produce either as any sex at all, that at the very least leaves 3 options, although i'd count "neither" as an option. But that's my opinion.
If we want to at there are three for intersex. I can agree but intersex groups find that offensive and bigoted. Intersex is just a birth defect. We have lots of birth defects that people like to call variations. I have a webbed toe. It doesn’t make me a new sex or species. It just a birth defect.
It's only a defect if it negatively impacts the individual. In this case, if the person is perfectly healthy, there's a case to be made that it is simply variation, whether or not it is a defect is then a matter of opinion.
It’s a defect because it’s a defect. We all have them. We just have become sensitive to saying it’s a defect or deviance. Since most is them we’ll be sterile and possibly ostracized from society, I’d say it has a negative impact for many. Just like any other medical condition, they shouid be treated with respect and dignity. They should also be allowed to decide their own medical treatment.
Circular logic.
This has nothing to do with my claim.
Defects specifically do not include social aspects, being ostracized does not make it medically a defect. Being sterile is also a defect, but just because you're intersex doesn't mean you're sterile.
Almost none of your comment has anything to do with my claim.
Which claim? That there is an infinite number of sexes? That’s false and isn’t taught in any biology course
I never claimed that there are an infinite number of sexes. I claimed being intersex isn't necessarily a defect, and that that means there are at least 3 genders, 4 if you include not producing any gametes.
Gender has nothing to do with it. Gender isn’t biological. It’s a social construct. Biology does not recognize intersex as another sex. It’s that simple. While there is a debate around it. Current consensus is that there are two. Gender is not equal to sex.
My bad, I meant to say sex, I obviously know the difference I started this conversation with the difference, spare me the explanation if I mix them up again. The current consensus says no such thing, point me to a source.
even by the gametes definition there's at least 3 or 4
male, female, both, neither.