Fairvote Canada
What is This Group is About?
De Quoi Parle ce Groupe?
The unofficial non-partisan Lemmy movement to bring proportional representation to all levels of government in Canada.
🗳️Voters deserve more choice and accountability from all politicians.
Le mouvement non officiel et non partisan de Lemmy visant à introduire la représentation proportionnelle à tous les niveaux de gouvernement au Canada.
🗳️Les électeurs méritent davantage de choix et de responsabilité de la part de tous les politiciens.
- A Simple Guide to Electoral Systems
- What is First-Past-The-Post (FPTP)?
- What is Proportional Representation (PR)?
- What is a Citizens’ Assembly?
- Why Referendums Aren't Necessary
- The 219 Corrupt MPs Who Voted Against Advancing Electoral Reform
Related Communities/Communautés Associées
Resources/Ressources
Official Organizations/Organisations Officielles
- List of Canadian friends of Democracy Bluesky
- Fair Vote Canada: Bluesky
- Fair Voting BC: Bluesky
- Charter Challenge for Fair Voting: Bluesky
- Electoral Renewal Canada: Bluesky
- Vote16: Bluesky
- Longest Ballot Committee: Bluesky
- ~~Make Votes Equal / Make Seats Match Votes~~
- Ranked Ballot Initiative of Toronto (IRV for municipal elections)
We're looking for more moderators, especially those who are of French and indigenous identities.
Politiques de modération de contenu
Nous recherchons davantage de modérateurs, notamment ceux qui sont d'identité française et autochtone.
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I didn't realize what community I was in, I thought this was a more general one. Seems rude to come in and argue the merits of PR in a community devoted to it, apologies, I'm happy to let it be.
If you read about what's happening in those countries, you'll realize it's not about the culture, it's that PR incentivizes really bad outcomes. Take Germany for example. Just like here, a small minority of people would vote for really hateful parties that are toxic and should be avoided. However, avoiding them has made the other parties form really broad and thus ineffective coalitions, which are unable to push forward significant legislation. The increasing inability to pass significant legislation has led to Germany's stalling development, which then further fuels extremist parties.
Similarly, you'll see in Israel where mainstream parties are held hostage by relatively small extremist parties leading to horrific outcomes that are generally not supported by the public.
I basically agree with the statement:
but I think you are missing the effective part. Consider, an absolute pure democracy where every bill, item etc was voted on by everyone. That would certainly be the ultimate in democracy, but it would be a terrible way to run a country and likely lead to some insane policy choices. Similarly, an autocracy can pass perfect and brilliant legislation but is completely un democratic. So, we can see that there is give and take between full representation and effective government. My entire point is that PR, while really groovy on paper, tends to produce really bad outcomes and thus sacrifices a lot of the efficiency of government (and of voting frankly) for some (arguably temporary) democratic gain. I know too much about the to be anything but stridently opposed to PR.
I mean, we live in a democratic society, so free speech is encouraged.
Edit: also if there were a hypothetical system superior to proportional representation, I'd be in favour of it after rigorous consideration. I'm not bound to any particular electoral system.
How is that a "bad outcome" when it's literally what people voted for. Electoral systems are not supposed to decide the ideological makeup of government.
It's not PR you are against, you are against a characteristic inherent of democracy itself.
Is this worse than the big tent parties we have now, that members can't vote or think independent of their party leaders?
What does this have anything to do with our conversation? We aren't discussing representative democracy versus direct democracy. We are discussing proportional representation vs non-proportional representation.
@AlolanVulpix @MyBrainHurts Sorry I know this isn't directly abt PR for Canada. But isn't Germany really an example of PR success? AFD is not in government. In the US, a similar movement (MAGA) pretty easily parlayed a small plurality within one party into a takeover of every government branch.
I'm not about to have a full discussion about PR causing success or not. I'm sure there are already articles written on it.
However, if we live in a democracy, we are deserving of and entitled to representation in government, and only proportional representation can get us there. A democracy necessarily requires everyone having a seat at the table, and in a representative democracy, vote percentage must equal seat percentage.
If you're going to advocate for something, it seems wild to just hand wave "surely someone has written articles about this."
It seems like you are very excited about the goal of PR but haven't really looked into, or are unwilling to acknowledge, the dangers, pitfalls and harms. Sort of like when trump says he wants to help American workers, very hard to hate that idea but it's the details and how those details will play out that is the essential bit.
The point I'm trying to make is this:
Great question! In the very short term, sort of. (Though from the start I'd point out that it is much harder to envision a party like the AFD gaining traction in an FPTP system)
PR causes 2 different styles of issues with the AFD. 1) It makes politics much less likely to produce significant or helpful change, so people don't see meaningful political improvements in their lives and are more likely to turn to extremist parties like the AFD. and 2) Because the AFD has so many seats, the winning coalition has to be super broad, basically the same coalition of the Conservative and Progressives that was seen as ineffectual the last time around. Admittedly, this time they can exclude the Greens. The same reasons the previous government collapsed and led to such a significant rise in support for the AFD are still in effect.
@MyBrainHurts living in the us I guess it feels like fptp is producing government that is every bit as unresponsive to people's problems. (Really a lot more unresponsive, for the problems important to me, like climate and housing.) And given the choice between a party system where it's a little hard to build a coalition that lasts more than a couple years, and a two party system with one party actively dismantling democracy; I'd so so happily take the first one.
What you're seeing as a broad ineffective coalition happens in Canada within the parties themselves, prior to the election. They're preconfigured to be broad and ineffective. The end result of ineffective governance is the same.
An AfD in Canada takes root not as a separate party but as a faction of one of the large parties. They grow internally and either split or take over that party. Has happened to our PC party which got split in two, then reunited again under the extreme part's leadership.
The significant difference between that and PR which produces the AfD is that the dissenting voices are hidden and suppressed for much longer under our system. Either by their own parties, or by gaining no seats under a third party. Both of those don't eliminate the problems that make people vote this way. They just delay the knowledge of those problems and therefore any serious solution. With PR the AfD shows up on the radar as soon as 5% of the people have a problem which makes them vote this way. The incumbent parties have an incentive to fix those problems much earlier. Sure they can do nothing and be ineffective but they could also decide to do something. Or there could emerge another party that rises up to address what they wouldn't. In our system that's basically impossible. Meanwhile in Germany, De Linke got 9%.
You don't see how abhorrent racist parties taking power is a bad outcome?
Yes. We've just passed a national school lunch program, are working on affordable day care and expanding healthcare to cover dental work. For better or worse, the Liberals have a very clear record you can vote on, whether you think they allowed too much immigration or you support their work on childcare, they have a clear record that they own and we are thus able to vote on it. This is not possible in a PR system. (What were the things your party actually made happen vs the results of messy compromises with a dozen parties? In the German context, as they'll need literally every party to avoid working with the AFD, how are you possibly able to apportion blame or praise on any party?)
Again, I refer you to your quote: "The responsibility of the electoral system is to ensure **effective **representation in government" I'm pointing out that there are trade offs. You could establish 100% representation but it would be terrible. Similarly, sure you can argue that PR leads to more representation but that doesn't mean that it is effective representation.
The ability of small parties to hold a majority hostage. Think about the extreme right in Israel, who despite being fairly unpopular are pushing ahead some fairly aggressive anti-Palestinian moves. This caaaaaaaaan happen in a fptp system but is much less likely.
That's not at all what I've said.
In the short run, if you can vote for any party but none of the parties are able to really affect change, how democratic or useful is your vote?
In the long run, it leads to more people being willing to abandon democracy as PR systems tend to be unable to deliver significant change. If democracy doesn't help, more people are willing to turn to autocrats.
I'm not making a position on whether a particular ideology is good or bad. In a democracy, people are entitled to and deserving of representation. If you don't like that, then you are against democracy itself. If that is what people voted for, then they are entitled to a representative that aligns with their interests. Once again, electoral systems are not supposed to determine the ideological makeup of government.
To suggest that these policies are solely thanks to an electoral system is nonsensical. The point I was making was that in non-PR systems, we have members that too often don't vote their conscience, and just keep in line with party policy.
So you've never seen mixed-member proportional (MMP)? And what aspect of our FPTP system allows you to vote for parties???
Yes, that is a characteristic inherent of democracy itself. Are you arguing for autocracy?
By effective representation, I mean every vote would actually elect someone. I don't mean that every single person would have a dedicated representative (nor even resembling that notion).
So yes, when you say "pure democracy where every bill, item etc was voted on by everyone" versus "an autocracy can pass perfect and brilliant legislation but is completely un democratic", the axis you are referring to is concentration of power.
Whereas PR vs non-PR doesn't really deal with that, it's more about whether votes actually elect someone. This is really getting into semantics, but the takeaway is that we aren't having the same conversation.
We already have a small minority holding the majority hostage.
Virtually every single majority government has been a minority holding the majority hostage... You really need to do your research.
It's definitely better than being strangled by a minority, like we have all the time.
True democracy is extremely slow, but that doesn't we should abandon our principles just to maintain a broken and unfair winner-take-all electoral system.
I'm sorry, but the points you raised are problems with democracy itself, not inherently with PR. PR only gets us closer to the ideals of democracy, and democracy is extremely flawed, slow, and yes can be strangled, but at the very least, policies must be enacted with majority support.
The notion that we should maintain our systems because we can pass more legislation (despite how unpopular it might be), is ridiculous and goes against the principles of democracy itself.
What benefits does FPTP achieve? It doesn't do anything it sets out to do, it doesn't guarantee local representation (we can have parachute candidates), it doesn't guarantee effective representation (we have many votes cast that elect nobody), and FPTP isn't even supposed to do any of the things you laud it for doing!
You haven't even addressed the point about PR electoral systems being mathematically superior to FPTP... perhaps because it doesn't fit your narratives? PR can be mathematically demonstrated to have its citizens better off, every single time than FPTP (or any winner-take-all system for that matter).
I'm saddened that you are cherry picking particular pieces of evidence to support your case, and you are so staunchly opposed to PR. I think about, if there is anything possible to change your mind, and since the answer is likely no, then there is no point in discussing further (not that I am opposed to it). Because, it's not clear what objective you want to achieve in an electoral system, that isn't a problem with democracy itself.