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This guy is trash but I can't get behind doxxing. Maga types will be doing a lot of this over the next 4 years and I certainly won't like it when they're doxxing immigrants and LGBTQ folks.
Be clear: I think this dude is as bad as they come, I'm just not comfortable with popularizing the practice, especially when maga types are fans of setting things on fire / shooting at things they disagree with.
If you think my comment is a defense of nick Fuentes, or that horrible slogan, you're as wrong as is physically possible. I know he's done worse than this, and now is hiding behind elongated. But that still doesn't make it a good thing to popularize.
Eh… fuck em. Let them fuck around and find out. I’m tired of playing nice guy with these twats.
I understand the desire. But two wrongs don't make a right.
For example, I'm also against the jokes about prison rape. I don't care who you are, you don't deserve to be repeatedly raped because you committed a crime.
Edit the point is that feeling of seeking retribution is natural. You want "bad" people to get the very worst of life. But if for nothing else it's best not to act on those thoughts because we wouldn't want that "retribution" brought upon others or even ourselves.
I'll make a deal with you. I'll be totally ok with it if I start actively harming women by insinuating I own them and you doxx me for that so that women can come tell me how I've harmed them. If I spout white supremacist drivel I want you to punch me until I stop. If I make thinly veiled rape threats I want you to kill me.
Since I want that to happen to me, I can go ahead and do what I want, right?
It's not "you", it's the innocent people about to be doxxed for their immigration status, who are not interested in whatever deal you're comfortable with.
Once the practice becomes politically popularized, the cat is out of the bag.
If you think non-fascists being civil and respectful to fascist is going to give fascists even a fraction of a second of pause before they do shitty things, my only possible conclusion is that you’re painfully naïve and also that you don’t actually understand what fascism is.
Doing their dance moves doesn't make us "good" anymore.
Who is "us"? I'm not here to be a good guy. I'm here to live my life on my terms without interference and help others do the same. Notice that nowhere in that sentence did I say "Make racists comfortable and happy" or "Snuggle up to a smarmy pile of garbage who trolls women".
I'm not a good guy. I'm not a nice guy. I'm not the tolerant left. I'm pissed the fuck off and I'm not above doxxing a stupid cunt obliquely threatening rape or punching a Nazi. You can whisper your mean words about them into your pillow or whatever you think will make them stop and I support your right to do so. But that ain't me.
Us being everyone who is not a maga.
You're cool with leveraging error prone violence that can easily be reversed on to at risk people. Live that best life i guess.
I'm all for taking it to these fascists, just get a better method lmao. Doxxing is shit because it can easily hurts bystanders, and is terroristic.
Everyone here is very ready to be conversationally violent, but there's nothing "tolerant" about not popularizing terroristic methods. It's just having basic respect for other citizens who don't want to be in harms way with no reason.
What if they got Fuentes address wrong and someone got their innocent house burnt down? That's why I don't like it.
If you're ready to take down Nazis, do it correctly. Don't risk randos.
If mother fuckers ain't checking their work that's their own fucking fault. Notice I haven't put that address anywhere because I haven't personally confirmed it. I also didn't participate in the Boston bombing thing on the other site because there was too damn much uncertainty. Not that I owe someone making sure Nick Fuentes is comfortable an explanation.
It's going to get turned on the vulnerable whether I do anything or not. It already has been in several cases without my involvement.
So you keep being the good guy. I'm going to be a shit bag.
Dude I just wanted to close by saying I get where your head's at. I'm there too.
I have a friend who is closeted LGBT and works with kids. They are a completely upstanding person. But they confided in me after trump was elected they are afraid of their address and or status/identity getting to some other adults who said they think all LGBT are pedos. So I have that in my head, my friend is scared. I'm amped up about this (and the Linux dev who got swatted on stream) and I just see destruction that way. I get others don't.
People really don't like my opinion on this but I just can't see doxxing as something I ever contribute to, or offhand accept. But I'm just one dude and no one needs to care about me outside of the up/down votes.
Edit sorry I got spicy in the latter replies, feeling like I'm up against the world for trying to stay sane.
We're on the same side, we just vehemently disagree on methods. They're already using that shit against the people I care about. I've gotten in actual fights with people talking shit about women, LGBT folks, and, in one case where I got locked up, a guy with a speech impediment because someone thought he was the r-word. It's been a while because I tend not to be that violent anymore, but I'm fucking tired. Ain't none of this other shit working.
You know what, I'm sorry too. I know we're on the same side but I came at you in a shitty way. It's something I'm working on, but I'm not in a great place lately. Thank you for coming at me a different way so I could see how shitty I was being. We can disagree on this and still fight for the same things.
Those two scenarios are mutually exclusive.
It's like saying, "Well, you don't want non-violent offenders in prison, so no one should ever go to prison for any reason."
It’s going to happen either way. We can dox their worst or sit back and do nothing. And they’ll still do what they are going to. Which is why the right always seems to win. They keep at something till they get it.
Sure but taking the high road has done nothing but embolden the right. It’s past time of playing nice.
This is literally what they've been saying for years. It's amazing how much we are like the people we hate the most.
GOP behavior baseline is Dems breaking point behavior. Notable difference.
By justifying it, you're justifying it for them too, as they believe they have the same or similar grievances. Regardless of who you think is more guilty.
They already believe themselves to be justified and have had their consent manufactured over a long time. As evidenced by the fact that they feel righteous in the Jan 6 attempt, and are responsible for most terrorism.
They say the same thing about the BLM protests.
There is no legal or verbal defense against this madness.
Once it spreads, historically, industrial levels of violence are the only way to try to put the genie back in the bottle.
I’d rather small scale intimidation against ringleaders like nick, than having to bomb the fuck out of some redneck stronghold in Missouri in 10 years.
My opinion is clearly unpopular here and I'm ok with it. I don't think it's cool to normalize violence (or threats of violence) even if the recipient is abhorrent. This isnt a "oh let's all have free speech, let's here what maga has to say" / platforming type of comment/opinion I'm sharing. It's a "I'm not going to normalize violence especially because I don't want it turned around on at risk people."
Y'all are free to have your own voice on it, I'm just sharing my view.
So let’s say nobody dozed this guy. Do you think that is going to stop anything you are afraid of?
One of my fears, aside from popularizing the practice, is mistaken address, and innocent people being hurt. So yeah, it would sure help that 100%.
Regarding the first point, I believe doxxing high profile people does indeed popularize it, so yeah, it would help that too.
You’re not comfortable using a tactic these chucklefucks use aggressively against us?
You’re as bad as DNC leadership, tbh. This “they go low we go high” idiocy got us where we are. Stop bringing a fucking deck of cards to a gunfight.
Do not lean into the paradox of tolerance. Intolerant views must not be tolerated. It’s always a good day to punch (or dox, or harass, or share their extremist views to their employer or…) a Nazi.
I shared my opinion that I'm not into normalizing political violence, even if they are already comfortable with it. I get y'all don't agree.
Hey, don’t get me wrong - I get what you’re saying, and nominally I wholeheartedly agree. I just ALSO feel that there’s a single, very specific exception: when a political movement inherently involves political violence (that is: fascism), this rule absolutely does not apply.
I get the motivation, I'm just sharing my opinion that I can't follow, because I personally believe other innocent folks will be swept up and hurt in the process.
I am no friend of these maga types. I think people here are very angry about these people (edit like Fuentes... Rightfully so!, I am too.) and my comment is perhaps seen as "defending"? Him. I am not. I just don't think this is the way to do it.
Again: I get what you’re saying. And again: I do nominally agree.
What I’m saying is that you’re looking at the trumpians/maga/proud boys/3%ers as “weird republicans”. They’re not. You need to be looking at them as NSDAP/Nazis/Sturmabteilung. Because that’s what they are. And the want to kill a whole fucking lot of us, because it gives them a hard-on.
Moreover, I’m not saying that we should be conducting overt, systemic political violence now, but I AM saying that we need to be fully prepared for that eventuality. And to that end, we should be looking to the Maquis, as well as the Polish + German resistance throughout WW2.
We are aligned on what they are.
I see resistance against their ways as clinging to, and calling for maintaining norms (when norms are ethical, reasonable... I fully acknowledge even without maga MUCH needs to be improved in America). It is my belief that by normalizing their tools, we institutionalize their methods. We, by participation, make common what should be extraordinary.
It is my opinion that resisting fascist drift is resisting. Others don't see it this way and are claiming I'm an apologist or something. That's too bad cause fuck nick Fuentes. I just don't like doxxing.
I used to think like you. Until last week.
That's cool, I'm learning a lot of folks here are at least conversationally cool with political violence. I get the urge, it's just not my path. I don't see doxxing as defending people, I see it as inherently terroristic because bystanders could be harmed, mistakes can be made, and it can be leveraged against at risk poeple. So I stand against it. I'll be in my seat calling for peace, and looking after my community, even if it's unpopular here. I see that as defending.
Have a good one
We have a right to defend ourselves including preemptively. Do you disagree?
If so you're accomplishing the same thing in the long run as the Nazis. How does that feel to be basically siding with the bad guys because of your apathy?
Completely agree, I just don't think doxxing is defense. Doxxing is akin to swatting and reddit boston bomber chasing. Bystanders are at risk and mistakes happen. It's for those reasons I find doxxing unacceptable.
Please do not imply I'm apathetic, there's no evidence for that. I'm not siding with anyone, I'm saying doxxing is not acceptable behavior by anyone, because of the risks.
Edit I don't approve of when things like jurors on trump cases, or election officials are doxxed either, if you have some implication that I differentiate on who should be doxxed or something...
I understand your opinion but your also the person they well just let someone take over the country then be like oh how did this happen.
Untrue. I never said do nothing, I am saying don't do things that can hurt bystanders or popularize hiding at risk folks
They'll do it regardless of if it's done to this dipshit or not.
Yes, I don't throw a bomb at them.
My core point is 2 part:
the only way these idiots will support anti doxxing laws are if they are doxxed. Its how you build a consensus.
Look at the plane thing. Because rich people wher effected they can now block that info.
I mean just the other day some folks were talking about his catty posts about the twilight movies. Trump is in some way relatable because he most the faults of everyone I've ever met.
You sound like the type of guy to tell someone who is being shot at that they shouldn't shoot back because "two wrongs don't make a right". This guy should be glad he's just being doxxed, my grandpa's generation had no problem sending Sherman tanks with flamethrowers on them after people like him.
Armchair general comment.
They never happened in an American neighborhood and you know it.
Attacking Nazis in an active warzone is not the same as sending people to a random neighborhood with little proof of your event at the right house.
As I said in the comment, Nick Fuentes is trash, but so is doxxing. Innocent people get hurt when people doxx.
I never said don't defend yourself or even take the fight to people like him. Just don't do things that will get innocent people hurt.
But whatever y'all just want to act tough and not care about consequences
Edit saying doxxing is the right tool is like saying "if you're shot at, leave a bomb in a public place where you think your enemy goes"
Doxxing can be done correctly, and in this case it was. The guy literally opened the door and pepper sprayed someone, he clearly lives there. I agree it's important to target it correctly, and I too dislike when people erroneously target the wrong people with it (Boston Bomber Reddit Moment comes to mind).
Any other tool can be poorly used as well, people shouldn't stop concealed carrying because some other people hit innocent bystanders in the past with theirs. They should train and use force responsibly. Writing off an entire method of dealing with fascists because some morons have used it irresponsibly in the past is a reductive and silly take.
It's inherently risky because online data can be stale. It's inherently terroristic because you are essentially saying "hey anyone, go do anything in a normal neighborhood, your enemy is there". What if there's a shootout of Fuentes front yard and a bystander is killed? That's net positive violence for the community that wouldn't have happened otherwise.
As you said, reddit Boston bomber. That's another alternative if online sleuthing goes wrong.
Back to my original point: doxxing high profile maga types will popularize the activity, and once they latch on in response they will do it with zero care or caution. You may say they are doing it already, I'm saying once it's plastered across their nrws feeds they will do it a whole lot more.
That's MORE net new innocent people put in harms way.
There are effective and existing ways to carry out whatever violence or vengeance or self defence. Doxxing isn't one of them. Being trained in concealed carry and using a gun is not alike doxxing. Doxxing is like a bomb.
Being armed is fine. Looking after your people is great. Not taking any shit is great. If you feel you need to confront people, do it with a level of accuracy.
I guess we just disagree on what doxxing is. When done correctly it's just someone's specific address or other info being posted publicly, it doesn't have to be associated with a call to violence it's more likely that people just stand outside his house with signs. It's also not targeted at a whole neighborhood. I can see why you're concerned that MAGA types won't be as careful with it, but they can be charged with crimes if they take it too far just like anyone else. Simply knowing where someone lives isn't a crime.
Imo when you doxx someone, it's implied that you are directing people to go to their house and at minimum, confront them. I totally get the urge to do that with this person. He's harmed a lot of people with his rhetoric. But even if accurate address, a confrontation can lead to violence when an angry person confronts a hateful person, on their property. I understand your point about protests on their street, but I still believe that will create potential for violence. I am not saying protest is wrong. Protest is great.
If it's something than a protest or a confrontation, then we are talking about what? Sending dogshit in the mail at the low end, or throwing a Molotov cocktail or similar at the high end. Then my concerns about accuracy are relevant. What if the address is wrong and a random family is the victim?
Also, firebombing is not the society I want to live in, even if Fuentes as trash.
Everyone is so ready to assume I'm an apologist for Fuentes, or a misogynist telling women to just shut up. That's not it at all, but people here are some ready for violence and so ready to be mad that what was formally a pretty popular sentiment (doxxing and swatting is bad) is now apparently different because the target is a bad dude. I fundamentally believe society is worse if we compromise our behavior because the target is a specific person. I also think the blowback of stooping to that level will result in increased harm of people who are already having a real tough go of things. What some are calling cowardice on my part is, in my opinion, harm reduction for people who need it most, and a call for sanity.